To launch off the program/podcast we interview Antonette Ligons who I had the pleasure of knowing during my tenure at Cisco. Antonette was the original founder of an employee resource group called "Men for Inclusion" within Cisco.
We talk through Race, her journey being a woman of color, her struggles, and tipping points as well as other cultural stereotypes and how it drives discussion around privilege and power.
You can find more information on both me and the program at www.breakingboundariesonline.com. If you know anyone or would like to be featured on this podcast, please drop me an email to umesh@breakingboundariesonline.com
To launch off the program/podcast we interview Antonette Ligons who I had the pleasure of knowing during my tenure at Cisco. Antonette was the original founder of an employee resource group called "Men for Inclusion" within Cisco.
We talk through Race, her journey being a woman of color, her struggles, and tipping points as well as other cultural stereotypes and how it drives discussion around privilege and power.
You can find more information on both me and the program at www.breakingboundariesonline.com. If you know anyone or would like to be featured on this podcast, please drop me an email to umesh@breakingboundariesonline.com
Hello everyone, my name is Umesh Lakshman, the host and creator of breaking boundaries. Before we begin, I wanted to take a moment. And thank you for choosing to tune in to this program, either on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple podcasts. With a plethora of options out there, my goal is to make this valuable, insightful and thought provoking use of your time. You can find more information about both me and the program at dub dub dub dub breaking boundaries online.com. If you know anyone who would like to be part of this program, or if you'd like to be featured on this podcast, please drop me an email to mesh u m. e s h, at breaking boundaries online.com. The goal of breaking boundaries as a platform is to interview everyday heroes to share their learnings, their struggles, and the wins in the search for a more inclusive and diverse landscape, both within and outside of the workplace. Each of them have transcended stereotypes and have created something not only for themselves, but also for others. So without further ado, welcome to breaking boundaries. To launch off this podcast. I interview Antoinette lygon, who is the director for diversity and inclusion at 2k games. And Toronto and I crossed paths during our time at Cisco Systems. Antoinette is one of the original founders have an employee resource group, or organization within the company called men for inclusion. As part of this conversation, we talked to race, her journey being a woman of color, her struggles and tipping points as well as other cultural stereotypes, and how it drives a discussion around privilege and power. alongside me, we had Tanya Escobar, the current global leader, for men for inclusion within Cisco co hosting this episode. May the Force Be With Us. So like I said, this is your thank you for being our guinea pig through this whole breaking boundaries. whatever we want to call right podcast, we do casts Episode iniciative you're trying to take here. The goal of today was to learn more about your journey, in short, and you have a very literal say a resume worth the journey just around diversity and inclusion that you have had in the past. And one of the things that I was mentioning to Tanya before you just hopped on is you're the LG. So I'm going to have Tonya introduce you as kind of our co host. And then I have maybe a bunch of initial questions and then we'll go from there.
Antonette Ligons:Okay, sounds good.
Umesh Lakshman:Tanya, all yours.
Antonette Ligons:Yeah. Hey, everyone.
Tania Escobar:Thank you for joining us on this session. I'm proud to introduce our first heavy hitter guests guest, Antoinette leghorns, who has been an exemplary lead in this journey of de AI, and who had was the former pm for Ben for inclusion, global lead, and introduced me to the work and the journey. So thank you for being with us. You know, really excited to get your kind of your own experience from your own words, right? Because you've done so much not only need lead a network that has grown exponentially globally, but also leading it into new directions, you know, a really what does it mean to intently bring people in, you know, bring people in and join in the conversation and action for equity, and inclusion. So, welcome.
Antonette Ligons:Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for that great opening and introduction. I mean, I'm not the Oh gee. I've been doing this work with you know, the help of you guys, you know, people that have the same passion and values and want to see the same change in this world. So it can't be done with just one person. So but thank you for the introduction. I really appreciate that. I'd love to dive into this conversation. So this is a great, great forum for that space.
Umesh Lakshman:Awesome. So yeah, there is no format We're gonna stick to be very honest. But to just kind of get you warmed up. So how did your journey with diversity and inclusion first start? And maybe kind of a follow up question there is, what was that tipping point where you decided, you know what? Something's got to be done. And I'm going to start doing something now. Yeah,
Antonette Ligons:great question. Great question that makes me kind of think about my journey. You know, these many years, when you first pose the question, when did your diversity journey start? For me, it's been all my life. I mean, I think a lot of us with, you know, being immigrants or African Americans, or, you know, I'm different than the majority of the people in America, your journey starts, you know, kind of from day one, when you notice that difference. But then you phrase the question, what was the tipping point for you? So that, to me, was a very personal journey as well. And it happened while I was at Cisco. So I've had the fortunate journey, to see my color to see my gender to see that as a strength. So anytime I went into a conference room, or a an environment where I was the minority, I saw that as an opportunity, as an opportunity to maybe dispel some stereotypes as an opportunity just to kind of shine in my own light, because I knew I'd be the only unique one in that space. And so I was able to take advantages of various opportunities, like being able to go to college, being able to actually get a PhD. So at some point, in my life, I've been I got a job at Cisco, you know, working with one of the most important high tech companies in the world. So at some point in my life, I felt like, you know, I've got this diversity thing beat, I've got this thing under control, because I've been able to have successes, then I was hit with a personal, a personal journey of my own, where I lost my husband to cancer. And so that for me was really it kind of just knocked everything from up under me, all the security that I thought I had, all of the stereotypes, I thought I just dispelled, it really kind of made my future very uncertain. And at the time, I was working at Cisco. And I was leading a global project. And I was so afraid of telling people at Cisco because I didn't. First off, I didn't want to be thought of as someone that needed sympathy, because I have been very independent and gain successes on my own, throughout my life, without you know, much, you know, sympathy. And then the second part is I didn't want my jobs be taken away from me, you know, I was now going to be the only provider for my family. So with that being the case, I didn't tell anybody until it was nearly until he passed away. Then he passed away, and I had to take time off of my job. And I stepped away. And everybody at Cisco from my co workers and my peers, all the way up to the CEO, john chambers, reached out to me and said, Antoinette, there's no way you should go to this by yourself, when you come back to Cisco, you're going to have your job secure, don't worry about that go out and take time for your family. And for people giving of themselves to me that way, I just thought, Oh, my goodness, what compassion. They don't really know me, you know, personally, they know my work. But Wow, when I come back to Cisco, I want to make sure that everybody feels included that no one has to feel like they're by themselves because of some personal thing that they're going through. So I came back to Cisco, my job obviously was secure. I had a promotion waiting for me. And my team just really became my family at that point. So that was the tipping point for me. I felt like I wanted to give back to every employee at Cisco, I wanted to make sure we were all felt included, no matter what our background was our circumstances, our story, we all have something valuable to give to the organization. And that's really the platform that I ran on, and how we basically started men for inclusion and really our philosophy today, it really hasn't changed. But it started that was the tipping point for me and just making sure that I had access to programs to create opportunities for other inside of Cisco.
Umesh Lakshman:It actually leads into the next question which Tanya is going to ask, but I do want to come back and touch upon that. One big point you mentioned is privilege. And maybe we should touch upon that later in today's session.
Tania Escobar:Yeah, so you mentioned you know, your personal tipping point. How do you get into the conversation? With other leaders within Cisco to really have the genesis of MSI be realized, right? What were the drivers that really motivated? You know, you, Casey woo politics as well, was it Lance Perry, and some of the other executives to really, you know, getting the zone to really create mF fi.
Antonette Ligons:So I remember, it was about eight years ago, there was a USA Today article. And the article was about jesse jackson coming to Silicon Valley and talking about the lack of diversity in Silicon Valley. In the same article, they printed diversity statistics for all the big companies, and everybody's statistic looked dismal. It was very embarrassing. It was a big spotlight on a huge problem that was happening in Silicon Valley. And Cisco actually had resources and some programs already, you know, trying to address this problem. So coming into it, knowing that we had a huge ocean to boil really, I wanted to focus on what was going to get us the right impact. And so I had been involved with various initiatives, diversity initiatives, and they were always around women, or helping people of color helping people with different abilities, but they were always with the same people. So I've been winning meetings with the same women talking about these important issues. Then I go into the black professional arena, and it's be the same black professionals talking about these issues. We really didn't see any traction, we didn't see an attraction or numbers, we didn't see any real leadership support. We didn't see you know, the impact and the opportunity being seized. So I just happened to be in the space and I was tapped by Sherry Slade. She says Antoinette, I've got a program called men for inclusion. Right now, it's got two sponsors. And we're looking for a program manager. And I thought immediately My reaction was mean for inclusion. Why, like a diversity program for men? I didn't see the connection. But I didn't tell her No. I said, Okay, let me go home and think about it. And I'll get back to you. And so I went home, and I researched and just, you know, try to dive deep into the whole diversity conversation, and why it was important to draw to involvement. And I read an article, it was a Harvard Business Review article 2016. And it it surveyed men in fortune 500 companies, and ask them, Do they feel included or excluded in the diversity conversation, for over 70% of them, felt excluded. And for me, that wasn't a big surprise, because again, I worked in this space, I worked with a lot of leaders, and a lot of them diversity is not top of mind for them. It's kind of the last thing on their list when they're trying to run their business. So at the same time, I also knew that there would be no way that we would AV have a program inside of Cisco, and exclude 70% of the people, the leaders and expect that program to be successful. So it was the same approach we were taking with diversity. And the light bulb went off in my head, like, Okay, we've got men who want to do something, they don't know what to do. They hold a lot of power, seniority in the organization in the company, why not galvanize them and create an actual forum where they can come together, and talk about their ally ship journey, and help each other grow in a way that's going to be meaningful, and help others other underrepresented groups inside of Cisco. That idea really did sink in with the executives they were brought on. And every time I talked through with, with them through the idea, everyone said, Yes, I never got to know, because it just seemed like a no brainer to really start galvanizing the support of all of our executives, especially males. So yeah, that's kind of how that whole thing came to fruition.
Umesh Lakshman:That is, that is an awesome story. And just because I mean, like, if that was 2016 2020 now and I've been doing MFA for a year. And one of the common challenges I face is how do I galvanize more of me? Right. There's maybe hundreds of hurdles there, just to cross through and we'll maybe uncover them to some extent today. What were your biggest hurdles in going from, hey, we need to do something to actually getting to do something.
Antonette Ligons:Yes. Okay. So a couple of things. The first one we talked about was you already mentioned was the galvanizing support, how do you get people turned on to that? So you know, we had a couple different strategies at first We thought, you know, you know, traditionally you want leadership support, you want it from the top down, you want, you know, leaders to really understand that this is important. So we started in San Jose with the busiest leaders in the world. And, you know, we really found that we didn't make Trent traction with them. They didn't have time, they, you know, are running these million multimillion dollar portfolios, you know, diversity, the environment did not demand for them to take diversity seriously at this point. So we looked for other opportunities. And what we did find was that our program teams seem to be growing, and they were growing with young males. And we hit on that, you know, Millennials get it. People born, you know, after the baby after the Generation X generation, I guess, if you will, after that, it really is a conversation about why don't you have this program, I can't believe your organization doesn't have anything like this. So we were behind the ball in terms of their mindset and where they expected companies to be in terms of their inclusive inclusion journey. So we got the support of a lot of our early careers. And when they're managers, their vice presidents started seeing their involvement, they change their mind. And it was actually a meeting that I had privy to one of senior VP had his leadership meeting, and they were talking about the issues in their organization, specifically, the gender imbalance. And one of the people in the meeting said, We need MSI. And he said, What is MSI? And once he found out what MSI was, it was kind of like, you know, that was it. That was the key to his, the solution to his challenge. And so he started being a supporter of mF phi. And we really got more traction, more money, donations, and more involvement ultimately. So that was one of the biggest challenges and still continues to be a challenge. Now the environment is kind of dictating that organizations place diversity is one of their top priorities. I love to see that. I really would like to see the focus more on men, people are just kind of getting a hold of that notion is maybe something that they want to try to start looking at and uncovering something that was very innovative for Cisco, because now I mean, even when I talk to other companies, they can't understand how we've done it and done it so well. We're really one of the only companies that have a really robust ally ship program for a minute. So I'm happy with the outcome so far.
Umesh Lakshman:So great que en for a shameless plug about MSI. Which is, I mean, I think you've kind of delineated one of the biggest and by the way, I'm the engineer on the call. So I'm gonna say things like delineated. So what you kind of highlighted, one of the biggest challenges, right? There's a big difference between organizational priority and putting the priority to operation and actually being able to get outcomes that translated to the long term journey. MSI to be for everybody's listening is all about enabling frontline individuals, frontline managers, frontline leaders from a bottoms up approach to align to potentially a top down organizational priority. So that's the way I see it, and maybe Tanya and Antoinette, you can maybe comment on that as well. Because I feel it gives us tangible tools, versus just a slide to look at and be like, right now, I got to do this, but I don't know how this lets us do you go from the house to the water? And these are things that we got to repeatedly do.
Antonette Ligons:I like that perspective and mash because you know why? It really is different. It keeps us honest. And it's a sounding board for us to making sure we are course correcting. The other thing I really love about MSI is how we get our men, a lot of our men are nominated by women. So initially, we didn't want you know, just people to say oh, I'm with MSI and just checking the box saying they're part of our program. We really want it man who walked the walk and talk the talk. And so we asked for nominations. We asked people, women who knew men who would help them in their career who were really inclusive, innovative leaders start nominating men to take leadership positions inside of MSI when he did that and then having you know, Tanya, myself as program leads women in charge of a male you know, leading a male ally organization, what better sounding boards could you have? And so just the fact that mF fi traditionally didn't get started the traditional way er, Ozu or just other company or networks, we really have a unique positioning because of the way We started, and the way that we have organically grown, I think it just gives us more credibility, and it shows us and it shows, you know, our stakeholders that everybody has a space in MSI. It's not just for white guys. It's not just for men. It's not just for women, it's for all of us who want to take part in this inclusion journey. And we all help each other in various ways.
Umesh Lakshman:Yeah, that's phenomenal. Because I love what he said there is to be an inclusive male, you got to start with listening to what you need to be implementing first, to have more of not you. So that's literally how I see it. And one of the biggest learnings that I had is as part of the MMI process, you have these listening sessions when you start a chapter, because I know I'm mentoring a chapter now. And I was like, I don't even I didn't even know that there was a very structured approach to going about doing that. And it was one of those aha moments as to be like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. We should maybe strategize around what the community wants versus what we want.
Antonette Ligons:Right? Yes, bingo. That was one of the big. Another challenge. You know, we were talking about challenges earlier, was the optics on having a whole male network. I mean, when people first heard of mF fi, they really got scared, and I had someone tell me, Antoinette, you're really going to put men in a room and have them make decisions about diversity? Are you crazy. And so optically, that did not look good, but what I convinced them was, you know, just what we said is, if they want the information, why not give them to them in a structured form, where we can all learn, and if they're okay, with, you know, having a woman, a woman lead the program, then even more kudos to them, let's not, you know, fight that let's go with the tide and really create something that's sustainable. And that works for everyone that wants to be involved. And so we really had to reposition that. But I think that was one of the biggest challenges, that started to be a real success for us. Yeah.
Tania Escobar:That's what resonates with me as well, in going, living MMI, it's, it's not designed to be an echo chamber just for men, right? Really, those decisions
Unknown:that we have enough of those already,
Tania Escobar:that will impact the work, the inclusion ecosystem, really do have to take in the the feedback and the inputs of those that will, it will impact a release to center them. So I think that's extraordinary, and how this network differentiates itself as an advocate, kind of network for about within Cisco.
Umesh Lakshman:You both briefly touched on this, and I'm gonna put you on the spot. And maybe this is where the gloves are coming off. Which is both of you are women leading a male ally ship network. How did that go? What were the brutal realities that he faced as part of that function? And what can men who are trying to join MFA do better? When we look at leadership from a non gender oriented lens?
Antonette Ligons:Good questions. For me, what I initially thought was, there's no way they're going to listen to a woman. Talk about ally ship, I had my own stereotype about what I thought the men wanted to see, and how the how I would be received. And I almost talked myself out of being a program manager a few times interesting. Especially when we launched two locations that were heavily male dominated like India, I tried my best to get a white guy to come in speak for me to be my mouth to talk about mF fi on behalf of me. And it never it didn't pan out. And I went there. And I was blown away by the openness, by the welcoming that I got by there. They were like, thank goodness, someone from headquarters is coming to talk about our issues. They were will so the women there just welcomed another woman who could really understand their unique challenges. And I'm just gonna put it out there. I don't know. I think the men just appreciate it another brown skinned person from headquarters really talking about their challenges. You know, I wasn't I am a woman, and I'm sure there's some differences, you know, differences. That that holds for them, but I did not feel it. I felt so welcome. And so for me, I think you know, as we're launching in these different locations is very, very important that we get out of our own way. You know, we have our own biases. And just because I'm a black woman doesn't mean I'm, I'm not biased, or that I understand bias very deeply. You know, I'm still just a person who's learning and growing. And so the mission for mF fi, if it connects with you, it doesn't matter who you are, where you are, the position you are in, there is a place for you there. So yeah, that's that was my experience and kind of just trying to understand that that unique dynamic.
Tania Escobar:And then I'm so glad you said that, because I just want to say I see you, because that feeling of imposter syndrome is, it's so prevalent, even in myself, you know, stepping into the role is believed like, it's, it's daunting to say, okay, you will lead, you know, a large network of men to try and really not just influence the culture within your own company, but it's a mindset change. It's a culture change, right? That is very daunting. But what I, the flip side of that coin, is that I realized through working with such passionate people and having conversations is that men feel imposter syndrome to right men have these insecurities about the their impact and what they can do, right? So what I, what I'm loving about this opportunity is yes, it is incredibly uncomfortable, to step into this work to step into this network. But at the same time, hey, you're going you probably have the same questions. I have maybe a little bit different perspective, men or women, but through that insecurity, that's a commonality we have and I think we just, we can start start there, right, that we can just have a conversation, learn from each other. with each other. Right, be willing to because people will make mistakes, but we're honoring the pack that people want to show up. And that's huge.
Antonette Ligons:Yes, yes. And I'm so glad you talked about the whole fear, because, you know, we always try to get our executives to really be authentic and share their stories, any person MMI because it's so helpful. But there's so much fear, initially interfering in experience that didn't go well for you and experience you did not master. And so much of that this inclusion work, this diversity work is that it's that uncomfortable feeling of not being quite right, not being quite accepted, and just stepping out on a limb. But the more you do it, the more trust you build with your team, the more authentic you become, you know, and be seen as, and the more you get over that fear. And it becomes just a way for you to talk and express yourself. And people are bonded to that they really jive with that. And so it's more, you know, mimic mF five and really build our platform on the listening, helping men listen to others, and get to the point where they want to share their experience as well. And getting past that fear of not knowing everything, that's okay. We don't always have to have the answers for these hard conversations, these hard challenges that come up and topics and issues. But the fact that we're there and listening and building trust, and just being vulnerable with each other is such a huge step in all of us, for all of us. But especially for mF fi, it's really, you know, helping us grow together. So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Thanks.
Umesh Lakshman:Yeah, I think from a very general, maybe shifting the lens a little bit and giving you my perspective is when you're talking about imposter syndrome. And I've had this conversation with a few men around how culture drives imposter syndrome as well. You mentioned traveling to India, India has a very strong like very binary culture, right, which is when I was growing up, I was either supposed to be an engineer or a doctor or a loser. Those were very that was a very drastic, like Cliff dive at the end of that conversation. So it's it's it's it's a culture which is driven me initially to think that there was no room for failure and iteration. So, for bike I have to get out of my own echo chamber echo chamber of going in and saying okay, I do not know the answer. Like and I am good enough, in some cases is like, worse and I had to make statements versus ask questions. imposter syndrome sits in the land of questions, right? Am I good enough? Am I am I qualified enough. A lot of that going on in your echo chamber and shifting that from questions to statements does that I am good enough, right? I am very qualified to get this and it drove drove a lot of the initial was as a personal transformation for me, then I've seen that with some others I've spoken to, then we've created a safe space for like a moment. Yeah, I just thought I should share that with both of you here as well.
Antonette Ligons:It's very important for you to I'm glad you did, because so many of us when we are in this space, we think we're the only ones and like, you know, Tonya mentioned, we thought we were the only ones with the whole imposter syndrome. And for you as a seasoned executive to know that you still go through that, as many speeches that you give you know that that's still a challenge for you. I think it's another point to the whole MSI mission. I mean, me as a woman, I get something out of MSI, but I get something out of a woman's group too. But I find that and I get something out of the black professionals group, but I find that we have reoccurring themes, we all are feeling, you know, the same challenges and have the same aches and pain points. So why not have these conversations where we have these intersectionalities kind of criss crossing each other and inviting more conversations to take place about things that we thought were different, but we will probably find out we have more alike than we do different. So again, it's another platform for why it's so important to have MFA and other programs like that available.
Umesh Lakshman:I'm switching gears a little bit. Maybe give us an example of things that you really walk out of here saying, Wow, that was great. That was an awesome outcome when it came to diversity and inclusion. And I'm sure in your journey here with Cisco. And in the DI space. You had a few of those. So I'm asking you to pick one, which is maybe a tough one. But if there's more than one, that's completely fine.
Antonette Ligons:Yes. Okay. So this is probably this is why it sticks with me because it was my very first recruiting trip. And we went to Grace Hopper. And, you know, Grace Hopper has got the best of the best, brightest women technologists in the country. 20,000 women from the best universities, and you go there and you try to hobnob with you know, big companies and try to get a package or get signed on. Cisco hosted a cocktail hour, one night, and I was there, you know, picking up resumes talking to some of the students. And I noticed an African American lady, she's just sitting over to the side. And she kind of eyed me when I first came in, we kind of said hi to each other. And then I'm sitting at my table. And as soon as I finish talking with one person, she comes over to me, and she says I want to give you my resume, but I want to tell you right now, I have a 2.0 like a 2.3 I really struggled last year at my college, she went to Texas a&m and she knows she had an internship at GE but then she had to quit, she had to take care of her mom and her GPA just didn't really show her true potential. And I said, but I just had a conversation with her, you know, and I can tell she's really bright, smart girl. And she eyed me out and you know, had enough guts to come up and have the conversation and have that hard conversation with me and not try to impress me and tell me something that she's not. And so I took her application, and I set her up with the interview. And she ended up getting hired in our RTP office. And she sent me an email to said Antoinette, thank you so much. You encouraged me. And I ended up getting a Cisco internship and I'm so grateful. Well, then she went on, I followed her career on LinkedIn. She went on to Price Waterhouse Cooper and as a full time Program Manager, she sent me in a LinkedIn message she said she was picked to study at Carnegie Mellon Hall as a fellow, she got a graduate apprenticeship as a fellow for Carnegie Mellon. And I went, Wow. And that's because Cisco was on her resume. That's because you know, Price Waterhouse was on a resume, that's because we really had access to give people opportunities that they really wouldn't have in a traditional setting. And so, you know, for me, that's all it took for me as somebody just to not see me in a box and see my potential and offer that. And if I can get 100 men to do that, if I can get 1000 men to do that if we can get 100,000 men to do that. Just think of that impact that that could have for people's lives, you know? Yeah, well, you know that for me that story and that just happened to sent me that email for Carnegie Mellon just about a month ago, and I was just like, almost in tears because I've seen her full circle, you know? So yeah,
Umesh Lakshman:that's awesome. I think a lot of the biggest achievements when it comes to things like the are somebody Being a part of somebody else's journey?
Unknown:Yes.
Umesh Lakshman:And somehow influencing or doing something that was a very pivotal point. They're in their trajectory overall, like career or life or something. Yes. And then the it's not a tangible satisfaction, I feel it's more of a, like the sleep well at night kind of thing.
Antonette Ligons:For me, it's all the hard day's worth it, you know, and I
Umesh Lakshman:go to bed with a smile. That's all sucky. And she had But clearly, okay, great. It's like, yeah, it's all a grain. And I know, you're all stuck at home, and we're all staring at four walls now. But that was worth it. And you kind of go back and be like, Okay, great. That was awesome. Yeah. Now, you know, we have a short amount of time. So I'm going to jump into a broader topic here, which is around just 2020. The landscape has changed phenomenally over the last eight, nine months. And that's not just around diversity and inclusion, but it's, I would say with the lens is broadened to include social justice as well. It's front and center now. What could anyone do? any individual right? So this could be you, me? Tanya, anybody who's listening to this? Dude, that is tangible. Yeah, that can that can bring about positive change. As it relates to the
Antonette Ligons:I thought three things that I like to tell people, because you know, now is the time where people want to know, you know, they want to be active allies, they want to know, how can I help support black people? How can I help help support people other than me. So there's three things that I like to do, I like to tell people, the first one is to stand up, when you see an injustice right then and there, speak up for somebody use your power or your privilege to right that wrong, right in in time, real time. The second thing is, if you are in a position of power, please create opportunities for people different than yourself. those opportunities can be life changing for people, I mean, you just really don't know what that little decision you make, that you may not even think about can really impact someone's life. And the last thing is teach your kids how to be allies to people that are different. Embrace differences. If you have a kid who's got you know, a person with a disability in their class, make sure your kid is in that class, make sure your kid is one of those helpers. You know, just actively be an ally, mentor for your kid and watch your kids grow up naturally embracing diversity. So those are the three things I think anybody can do. Yeah, I think
Umesh Lakshman:the goal here is well, and as we kind of like finish up and kind of close out for the discussion was to kind of learn more about your journey, right? Because I mean, I feel like we could spend maybe a full another 60 minutes and we'd be still chipping away at it. One last commentary around privilege. How do you define privilege?
Antonette Ligons:privilege is a position that you have based on something that gives you power?
Umesh Lakshman:Yeah. Okay, there you go. Bingo. So the reason I kind of put you on the spot there is because I wanted that power word to come out. Right is, is you would be amazed at how many things I thought I was not considering privilege till somebody kind of said like, dude, your privilege. And I was like,
Unknown:All right.
Umesh Lakshman:All right. I had one of those moments at better man. I think Tonya was sitting next to me when that happened to somebody he said, Dude, education is privilege.
Unknown:Yes,
Antonette Ligons:sit in it. And that's the difficulty you ask because we sit in it. So when you see it, I have privilege all day long to my son just said, Mom, you know, we've been so privileged to live through this pandemic and not really feel our lives changed. What a privilege. And I said, Wow, yeah. Wow. So we, yeah, everybody has a privilege. You may not feel it, because you're in it. But I bet you everybody has an advantage.
Umesh Lakshman:Yeah. Tanya, did you have any questions for Antoinette? Oh,
Tania Escobar:I could keep her here for another hour. I'm sure you have a lot of amazing stories with all the different people that you work with and Cisco, and just doing this work, you know, how it reflects out into the industry, right and getting to connect with other companies and other thought leaders on this, so I'll say those questions for another time. But I sincerely want to thank you for your willing, your willingness, your investment, and your joy that you bring, you know, as a fellow Cisco onion, but as a black woman, you know, as a leader. You know, it's, it's been such a pleasure to learn from you, and work with you, and try and put these bricks together for a foundation that, you know, we can carry on into the future years, so, so that hopefully one day every every corner of Cisco and society will have, you know, infrastructure for folks to step into the advocacy and not feel like it's not for them, or an extracurricular thing. So then you Oh, thank