E2: Claudia Santamaria. Chief legal counsel, Cisco Mexico

Our featured guest for episode 2 is Claudia Santamaria.

She is the legal counsel in charge of Cisco Mexico for the past 8 years and currently leader of Women of Cisco Mexico and Community impact Mexico. 
On personal note she is a wife, housewife and mother of Twin girls 3 years and a half.

We talk about her journey prior to taking on leadership role in the DEI space and some of the key impetus points for that shift to lead. We discuss stories of allyship and how to develop allies as well as common challenges women face in the corporate world.

Claudia is a phenomenal leader and truly does not hold back any commentary. Transparent and Thought provoking.

thank you for tuning in! 
 

Transcript

Umesh Lakshman: 0:07

Hello everyone, my name is Umesh Lakshman, the host and creator of breaking boundaries. Before we begin, I wanted to take a moment. And thank you for choosing to tune in to this program, either on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple podcasts. With the plethora of options out there, my goal is to make this valuable, insightful and thought provoking use of your time. You can find more information about both me and the program at dub dub dub dub breaking boundaries online.com. If you know anyone who would like to be part of this program, or if you'd like to be featured on this podcast, please drop me an email to Amish, u m. e. s. h, at breaking boundaries online.com. The goal of breaking boundaries as a platform is to interview everyday heroes to share their learnings, their struggles, and the wins in the search for a more inclusive and diverse landscape. both within and outside of the workplace. Each of them have transcended stereotypes and have created something not only for themselves, but also for others. So without further ado, welcome to breaking boundaries. Again, thank you for joining us, Claudia. So for those of you who are listening, Claudia, Santa Maria is going to be the guest for the second episode of breaking boundaries. And a little bit about Claudia. Claudia is the lawyer in charge of Cisco, Mexico for the past seven years. She's the current leader of women at Cisco, Mexico and community impact at Mexico. On a personal note, she is the wife, she's a housewife, and the mother to two beautiful twins, three and a half years old. So and she does it all with a beautiful smile. So I have we applaud her for being able to like keep everything together and still doing all of this work. So thank you for joining us on the show today. But yeah,

Unknown: 2:18

thanks to you. Thanks, Dan.

Umesh Lakshman: 2:21

And the co host today again is nobody needs an introduction, Tonya Escobar, she did the co host role for the prior recording as well. She is the global lead for men for inclusion. And with that said, kind of going to start it off. Right. So Claudia, we'd love to know your journey right at a very high level where it all started for you. I know you've done a lot of work on women a Cisco you're done, you've been in a domain, which is also a little bit on the masculine side of the house. Right as a lawyer. So it'll be great to kind of like just get where did that all start? what triggered you to even get into legal? Right, some of the history growing up, and then we can maybe dovetail into different aspects.

Claudia Santamaria: 3:11

Sure, thanks so much. Well, I my father, he was in the army, actually, he was a very strict guy very, according to the rules and what needs to be done, right. So I grew up with that image in my mind. So I decided to be a lawyer because of that, because I love justice. I love to do the right thing almost all the time. At this point of my life. It's almost all the time. But I enjoy a lot of that. So I decided to be a lawyer to get justice for everybody for the persons that cannot have done justice. Then when I started my career, I decided that corporate law was much more like myself know the criminal one because it's very hard, especially in Mexico. So I decided to follow this corporate path. And as you mentioned, as a lawyer, it's a masculine world, actually. Still now there's a lot of women lawyers, but until now it's more masculine. So my career career life has been a true telecommunications, which I love. And I have been working in that since a long time ago and not going to say my age. I'd have like, more space and working with the with the logistics industry, which I didn't like I have to say because if a telecommunications telecommunications is masculine, logistics you cannot imagine. I mean, there were only two director women. And it was very, very hard because all the customers, all their providers, they were men, I'm not complaining I love men for sure. But it's a very, very hard word actually because they treat you sometimes like with no respect. They do not respect your opinion. They think you are Sometimes, like a piece of meat, I have to recognize that that I felt that way so many times at that a role. So I decided to leave because I didn't like that at all. So when I joined Cisco, it was the first time in my professional life that I discover a company that truly respect and a truly incentive all these values about inclusion, about diversity about, for example, women of Cisco, et cetera, et cetera. So I love that because it was so new for me, right? To be part of this community, a, even when I have some issues when I started a Cisco, and I want to share this with you. Because when I was in the interviews to join Cisco, I had, I received a specific comment from one of my interviewers, now it's my friend, he's a very close friend of mine, but at that time, we didn't know each other. I he told me, you know, you don't need to be concerned about if you're going to join Cisco or not, because he's comparing against a man, you are going to take the role. And I say like, why, right? I mean, if we already equal conditions, and he told me because you're a woman, and Cisco is looking to increase a woman a quotation, so I was I'm very expressive with my face. And I was like, Really? I was so upset because of that comment. He told me Yes. Because you look, very Dude, you are very tall, you are pretty. So you, you have some that those kinds of advantage. I was legit cannot believe I was like, Oh, good to know. However, I'm positive. I'm sure that if I want to join Cisco, it's because of my professional skills, not because I'm tall, or about a woman or I pretty or wherever, right? He was very ashamed at that time. He was like, No, no, please don't misunderstand these, etc, etc. What he said. So I decided to do this in a positive way. Because I like to be sure about myself and about who am I. So I decided that if I was picked for this role, it was only because of my professional skills. And I still at this point seven years later, I think that was the right, a, a positive feeling I have at that time.

Umesh Lakshman: 7:26

So I have a follow up question there. And and it's not a question but more of a common to everybody's listening. So when you and I spoke last week, Claudia, you mentioned this very clearly, and I'm looking at my notes. You said I don't want to be hard, because I'm a woman who is tall and pretty. And I don't want to be judged for stereotypes. And I thought that was very powerful. The other thing I did, you immediately followed that up with, I want to be hired because of my professional skills. And because I'm intelligent, I'm powerful, and I'm a leader. Right? And both very strong statements. How much of that one incident, right, really pivoted the way you thought about a lot of other things down the road.

Claudia Santamaria: 8:13

It'd be a lot, actually, because I felt the necessity to prove at that time that I was hired because of that what you mentioned, because I was on board for because I know to do my job very well, because I'm sure that I performed my role in a very good way because that's why I'm still here. And I have the respect of the directors, I work with them. My internal customers, external customers, I have very good relations internally and with our customers with the law, a customer lawyers. So for me, it was like a change my mind about Okay, maybe I haven't received that comment that directly before. But it's always there, right? Because your toe because you think your previous said that I got more advantage. And that is not true. I let me tell you that I have never used my weight or my height or whatever, to obtain something never in my life because I always prefer this compliment. Like you're intelligent, instead of you're pretty to be just as intelligent as praying, right? Because that last forever. So that was yes, that helped me a lot to understand where I was, and how I wanted to other people and especially other women to be treated like right to be respected and to have a place in the company in their own areas, etc. Because of their skills, not because of their looks.

Tania Escobar: 9:43

can ask a follow up question. You mentioned that. Now you're you have a good relationship with this person. Right and you're now at that point of friendship. But I know when I've had experiences hearing comments like that does couple things. It one fuels the fire, like you said, makes you want to prove, you know, your skills and competency, which can be a good thing. But on the other hand, it also can build a wall between you and the person. Right? So how did how did that person who said that comment, make things right? Or show, you know, a growth and a learning so that you could get to the place of friendship, you know, and being amicable with each other? Because sometimes people get caught into that mistake. And then Okay, well,

Claudia Santamaria: 10:32

actually, she's very mature again, when after I was hired, we have an informal lunch of the director of staff in Mexico, like two or three months later, after I was hired. I he told me I'm congratulations that you're here. And I want to borrow yours with you. Because I saw your face, I saw the way you looked at me and they and the interview, and they were looking at me like, I cannot believe you're saying that. Right. So I was very ashamed of what I said to you. Because I know you have a lot of skills, professional skills, etc, etc. And I have to say, Yes, you were so out of line. Somehow I was so surprised because of your argument. Because as I mentioned to mesh, I'm very open, I'm very direct. Maybe they can sometimes like aggressive. I'm not what I want to say what I want to say, right? If I need to be fair, I'm fair. And that's I'm apologizing because I'm fearing, or because I said something that was needed to be said. So I said to him, yes, you were out of line. I was so surprised because of your comment. But I'm glad that you apologize. So we can be friends now. Then we started to work together in a lot of a purple prayers. I told me once I respect you so much, because you are very fair, because you know how to communicate yourself because you know what you're doing, right? Because we close a very important deal. So when I gained his respect, I was like, Yes, I know it, because that's why I'm here right now. Because if I were worried,

Tania Escobar: 12:08

yeah. But the point of acknowledgment is so important, right? You cannot build the bridge to like you said that respect or being able to collaborate together without that honoring what happened. So I'm very glad to hear that. You were honest about that. And he, he accept, you know, he accepted that as learning and a teaching moment. So yeah,

Unknown: 12:31

and you're right, done. And just because I will never respect somebody that doesn't respect me. I need to feel the respect of the other party. To respect him, I will never expect somebody that looks at me like a piece of meat, right? I would never would have that a connection.

Umesh Lakshman: 12:51

I one quick comment I want to take and maybe make it for everybody who's listening is it is okay to call out something that is happening that is wrong, as long as it is respectful. And I think that's kind of what you're highlighting here is you don't know what you don't know. So sometimes people don't know the mistakes they're making till somebody actually calls shit out. Right? That's the easiest way to say it. Everybody on this call has made a mistake that we didn't know we were making to somebody called it so it's it's it's something especially in when it comes to diversity and inclusion. I'm I love the fact that the story is about somebody making a mistake, or acknowledging a mistake, but also alongside you calling out the mistake. All three things need to happen for it to work. I love that one of the kids that also screaming at the same.

Unknown: 13:49

Sorry.

Umesh Lakshman: 13:50

No, it's completely fine. This is 2020 This is exactly how it's supposed to be. It's a good plugin for babble labs, integration, right to remove all the background noise.

Unknown: 14:02

Yep, can't wait for that. Yeah.

Umesh Lakshman: 14:05

Cool. Awesome. I'm actually gonna like if you don't mind today, I'm going to take the next question here, which is the you talked about? Okay, that was a very defining moment. And there was also another external factor. We talked about where you came into, you came into Cisco, you came in, in into a domain where you saw the need for a women of Cisco kind of competence to exist in Latin America and literally spearheaded that and started it. So can you give us more around what started all of that for you?

Claudia Santamaria: 14:38

Yeah, well, it's more likely women. In Mexico. There was also witnesses from Mexico and I, I joined because I love to support other women. And as mentioned to you, in order to support somebody else, and especially a man generally to like her do judo need to be her friend. You just need to be a woman as well and to understand our position Right, where are we in here in this communication work, so I decided to join because I like to be part of that community. And then when they currently there at that time, left to live with an office full time, I was invited to take this role as the leader of women of Cisco, Mexico. And I was thrilled about it, because there are so much things to do. You never stop to learn and to create and to innovate, how many activities or how many things to involve other women and also men, right? So I decided to have a twist here to implement a new activities like having this executive breakfast with our executives, men and women, and to have like a small amount of invited women in order to provide them this visibility, this honest chat, right? How our executives, look at the women of Cisco, not only because we are like this, hi, they are so nice. They are meeting every three months. And that's great. Oh, because we wanted to be take taken serious. I mean, we want to have sponsors, we want to have our executive support. We want them to be actually involved not only talking but doing right, to have a more, for example, women involved with them to have this executive shallowing. This sponsoring and say there are so many initiatives, real initiatives to have a deliverable for our members to have for them, again, something that they say, I love this, I liked it, I want to embrace these, I want more of these. How can I be seen, we launched a program this past month, and it's about a growing yourself, not only professionally, but a person on the right, emotional intelligence, you rematch your brand, how do you see yourself? How do you sell yourself inside the company? how other people looks at you? Right? Because sometimes our image what the people look so much different to yourself. So we are trying to work on that. Because I think that it's very important that you have conscious of yourself.

Umesh Lakshman: 17:20

Sorry, as I was getting out of mute there and trying to figure out my own WebEx for today. So there's, there was one comment he made when we spoke, which was around women in executive roles in Latin America in itself, right? was very minimum when you came into the ecosystem. Right? And when you join Cisco, how much has the landscape changed?

Claudia Santamaria: 17:44

I think it has changed, not that much. But it has changed for sure. We have so much more a women leaders, and they are very involved as well, a about growing other women. So I'm very proud of that. Because that has changed. And maybe not as fast as it may, should be. Right. So I think for all of the women at Lata they see like an opportunity, right? Because when I join Cisco, I think the opportunity, these were like this, and now we're like like this. So it's great. Right?

Umesh Lakshman: 18:21

Yeah. The when you're talking about opportunity in general, and access to leadership, one thing you mentioned just now is to go from talking about it to doing something about it. And that's literally where kind of meant for inclusion fits a lot, right is we are trying to take and then to quote Tanya here, we're trying to take the dominant group, in this case, men, right? Take a new angle at what needs to be actually balanced. And give them a toolkit to actually drive better inclusive culture, drive more diversity on a day to day basis at all levels. Right. The common challenge we see is, leaders get it. Like top line leaders get it? Right. They say diversity is important. Inclusion is important. This is policy. Frontline leaders don't know what to do with that. They're like, Okay, I'm great that my boss is telling me this. I agree. But I don't know how to put it to work. Right. So what are some of the things that you've seen over the last? I mean, like you've been in Cisco now seven years. So over the last seven years, leaders that do something well, right when it comes to changing the diversity story in general.

Unknown: 19:44

Yes, as mentioned to your mesh, the last time we spoke, I think a and you mentioned that already. You need to be honest and very genuine about this. Not only speaking with your team and with a women on your team, you are like treating them difference, right? You need to be authentic, you need to be aligned with what you're saying and what you're doing. So for me, is not doing big stuff, there is no like, I'm going to have you like, and I had to give you a raise and to have you promoted. No, if you do not deserve it, you have to deserve it as the rest of the employees, right. But, for example, I've learned something very common. They win. And it happens to me, it still happens to me. And a lot of women. When you're talking somebody, especially a man, they interrupt this is like, they saw many times they are taking our idea away, right? Yeah, yeah, kill that. But as you mentioned, blah, blah, blah, blah. And people think that their idea, right. So for me, that is not respecting myself or any other person. So it's a very small change. Let the other people talk. And that's it. And especially as a woman is not like we need help, right? Please don't misunderstand. As a woman, we don't need help, or that somebody else clowder pcsb? Because you haven't No, I don't need that. I can talk by myself, I don't need any help to do that. But please respect when I'm speaking, right? Because there's a lot of that there is more you can be you can think that experience more No, it's very important detail, to respect everybody else, right? To eat their own place to every single woman or at a meeting, etc, etc. And not to repeat this kind of behaviors. Right? They, because it happens a lot. I have seen that a lot. So for me, it's only not big changes for small ones as well. Right?

Umesh Lakshman: 21:41

Yep. Tony did have a question.

Tania Escobar: 21:44

No, but I wanted to add a comment to that, because I think I experienced that as well, I think it is a common issue. And I think leaders and people, whether you're a manager or not have to make space for each other. Right? And allow folks because not everybody will have the same temperament as well. Not a woman will feel comfortable speaking out in an assertive way, and that's okay. But allowing that space and for folks to read the energy of the room. So that when you see that how, you know, happening where people aren't being respected or, you know, interrupted, that you take a step to divert that. And to put focus back on the person who is speaking, I think that's, it's a simple thing to do hard to practice. And so building that muscle around it is is key.

Umesh Lakshman: 22:42

Yeah. And to add to that, I'll give you the outside in kind of a view, right, which is, as a male leader at a table. So many times I've seen the same thing, right? female leader says something. It's brushed aside, and another male leader says the same thing in different words, and it's like, oh, that is a great idea. And it took a while for me to even figure out what to do. Right? When I was little, I just was like, okay, that's kind of odd. And everybody brushes is off and walks away right into the sunset. What recently more recently I've started doing is like, that's exactly what she said. literally saying that, right? It's awkward. But it is a very important thing to give credit where it's due. And if you don't you you're not. It's like silence is complicit. Right, it's how I see it right, as I like, you can just brush it aside. So the more of us, whoever listens to this that goes in and sees something like this happening. Unfortunately, you will still continue to see it in some way, shape, or form is just don't take the credit don't highlight the problem. But you can do all of that in one sentence by saying that is exactly what she said. Right? And give credit back to the lady in the room. So I just want to make that comment quickly as well.

Claudia Santamaria: 24:14

No, and I fully agree with you because that's another important step to mesh to, to recognize whoever is speaking whoever is talking and also to be like a sponsor of some other women because for example, here in Mexico we have like this, but Europe give a way to refer to some women right like this. It's like an old lady, but in Spanish is like this. Right? So it's like this woman to this woman she's talking about know it to the other side. If you respect myself if you respect my criteria, American business speak well about myself. Again, if I have to, I have been working with Tanya for so long as she's so Hold on what she was doing writing self, Tanya this lady because she's like, I haven't heard a lot of man, I have to say, talking or speaking good about women, in particular, how many women to recognize the work we're doing? Again, it's not like we need that what is like an example? Right? to go further to what do we need to do what you may do this, you can recognize your colleagues.

Tania Escobar: 25:29

Exactly.

Umesh Lakshman: 25:30

Yeah, indeed, completely agree. And I loved what you just said, it doesn't even sponsoring a woman doesn't have to be about sponsoring big things. It's about you and sponsoring the conversation. It's like creating safe space sponsoring that safe space. And creating that safe space is as important if not more important, in something tangible that everybody can do completely agree on that. Sorry, Tanya, did you have something?

Tania Escobar: 25:57

No, I'm good. I'm agreeing.

Umesh Lakshman: 25:59

I'm not okay. Sorry. Um, we talked about this in general about bad the stereotype. Right, and how women are put into stereotypes. And we also talked about how it's almost sometimes gender neutral. And you can say, for most immigrants, right, you can we tend to put people in boxes, right? In your journey, I'm sure you were put in multiple boxes that you've had to break out of. Right? How did you break out of them? If there's some things that you kind of learned that you can share with the audience? That's one and two, what are some of those horror stories? Right? What were some of those struggles that you really had to fight to make happen? But what were the heavy lifts?

Claudia Santamaria: 26:53

Yeah, well, above the stereotypes, I think a lot of strong woman a because Tonya mentioned, we don't have the same temper. All of us, I have to build my temper because of my career. Because of the position I have had in so many companies. I again, I need to be clear, I need to be direct, I need to be fair. And so that example, my character aside the way I am now. But sometimes it's difficult because men may say if a man is fair and direct, he's a leader, right? If our woman is fair, as direct, she's hysterical. Right? So it's a little bit different. It's a little bit complicated to say, I'm not hysterical. I'm just saying what I have to say at what I need to say, right? But if we have that kind of a stereotype that, oh, my god, she's again, she has to he has she has sort of a temper. She's maybe not married, because who wants to marry that girl like that? Right. I have heard that comments a lot. And my marriage twice. So even my temper, I have been married twice. So that's not the issue. Right? I mean, the issue is the way the men express themselves about a woman when she's strong, right? So I have to deal with that. I'm very corporate as well, I'm very kind of serious when I perform my job, because I have learned that people, especially with the lawyer, they think because you are friendly, or because you are close, they can have some advantages, right? Or in the other side, I went to Cisco Live in Cancun, like four years ago, and I was dancing with my colleagues, because that's what you do at Cisco Live, you're more mature, so dance and get married, etc. When I returned to Mexico, the first comment that I received, it was Friday, Cisco Live ends on Friday and went on Monday to the to the office, and I received a comment from a man. So cloudy, I saw you dancing there at Cisco Live here. And I was like, Yes, what is wrong with them? Because you're the lawyer, your circle producer, I'm serious. But I'm human. And I like to party as well. Right? And that's it. I mean, but those kinds of stereotypes that you need to be lawyer all the time or that you're hysterical that you're aggressive because you're there naked, said that and said that I I don't like to justify myself. I don't have to. I'm the way I am. And that's it. Right? So I don't have to apologize. I don't want to say no, I'm dancing because I like to know analyzing because I want you to answer right so but so many times we are compelled to provide explanations because the way we are of the way please be we haev it said that it said that up. So it has been a tough years. I have to say because I have learned to do that not to justify myself not to explain the way I am not to apologize because I had something not because etc. So it has been tough. But I have learned I have to say I have them as teachers ever men. I have learned a lot of them. Because they are very pragmatic, they are very practical. They don't take anything personnel on, or at least they fake. They don't take it personal. But they didn't take it personal, right? They don't know like, Am I going to say this in the staff meeting? But now they go out and speak. And believe me, I have sir, heard so many crazy ideas for putting in a friendly way. And I said, How did he said that in a meeting, right? Because if I say something like that everybody else would be laughing about me. But because a man said that it was like funny, it said that it said there. So I decided to be both to take a step. And say, if I have to say something, I'm not going to question myself 100 times it's correct. And I'm going to say good in a very good way is that political correctness, etc, etc? No, I'm going to say what I thinking. And that's it. Right. But I have learned a lot from him. I have to say that.

Tania Escobar: 31:01

I think what's powerful about what you just said, Well, yes, it's people have, it's important to recognize that folks do go through that cycle of thinking where my social capital may not allow me to say something that another like a male could write. And so when people are forming perceptions about, you know, people on their team and who contributes, especially when it's, you have not a diverse team, and there's, you know, a woman who may feel like they're representing all of womankind in your meeting, it's important for leaders to recognize that if they don't say something, there could be that underlying current that maybe they feel like if they do, it's too much on the line for them. Right. So then it's on the onus of leaders and your teammates to reach out to that person to understand their perspective on what happened in the meeting, or what happens, you know, in the day to day, because just because someone doesn't say something doesn't mean that they are thinking of, you know, a great solution, or, you know, they have a separate opinion of something. But the dynamics of the team, and the environment may not allow for them to do that.

Umesh Lakshman: 32:21

Yeah, but I totally agree,

Tania Escobar: 32:22

circling back to your leadership within women of Cisco. Right? And,

Umesh Lakshman: 32:28

um,

Tania Escobar: 32:29

you know, one of the things that we've discovered, you know, through MSI is that maybe sometimes we've men feel like they may not have a place within women of Cisco, or so maybe you could talk a little bit about that. What's your perspective on that? Because I think I'm a five strives to message that we cannot change the culture. Without men, we cannot we have to have everyone involved on effort. So the role of men in supporting women of Cisco, how do you see that?

Claudia Santamaria: 33:02

You have a great question, Danny, actually, because that is so true. We have received so many comments about men saying, I don't feel like I pertained to women of Cisco, because you're so women focused, right. But that that is true. And it's not true. It's true, because we are devoted to develop women. Right. So we it's a different perspective. At the same time, as you mentioned, we need men to do that we need men to change the quarter division, etc. So we have so like, six men played a role into women, which is from Mexico, and they participate in every single event we have, and they always speak, they always say they opinion and said I love them. I always always think to them, too, for attending, right? But we need to have more women involved in this. And even I'm not trying to change the vision of women of Cisco, because I'm not, but we're trying to be more inclusive with them, actually, because that's a mistake we sometimes fall into right? We are just women. And this is the club of women and there is no Matt No, that is not right. Because we need men to learn from them as well. They need to learn from us they need to have this interaction with women as well. So they can know how do we think it's difficult, I know but maybe they have like a hint of how do we think how do we interact, how they can help this change right of quarter of this vision etc, etc. So, for example, when we have speakers we have these, she he speaks every cue. So we have men and women. So what we are trying to do is not only a touching the issues about exclusively women, what about your emotional religions, your skills. A topics are interesting for everybody, not only for women, but we are still we have things to do here. You're right.

Tania Escobar: 35:11

Right. I love that. It's the intention as with other arrows and networks, right, the intention is to uplift and provide support for your community, in this case, women, right. But that doesn't mean that allies and folks who want to support can't be a part of that conversation, as you said and learn it's it's a, it's a gift to be able to get those insights and and have that proximity with those communities. So that's great.

Umesh Lakshman: 35:39

So would you to to the six men who are part of women at Cisco, what are they doing differently, that you see is helping the overall cause? And this just means like, spitballing question, right? Because I'm very curious. Right, is I'll give you my context to one story, is I went to watermark conference three years ago, I was one of three men in audience of 10,000. Oh, my God, was the was the moment, right is like, I remember a colleague of mine, she came to me and she was like, she literally grabbed me, I was on the side like this with the phone, waiting for the sea of women to walk out. And I was like, I'm gonna wait for everybody to leave before I work. Right. And she already came, she grabbed me by the hand, she put her hand on my hand, and she just dragged me She's like, now I know how I feel. Yeah, exactly. That's like, and I'm saying that story, because it's, it felt very different, right? I was a confident individual in general. But all of that just completely shattered, right? When I walked into that conference, and resist the day. But I'm trying to give that context, because those six men potentially are doing something different, right? They're going through something different, but they're also trying to create more of them. What are they doing that is different?

Claudia Santamaria: 37:11

I think the most important thing is that they pertain to women of Cisco, they don't care about what other men may think, because they are part of women of Cisco, right? They are breaking the stereotypes now that I'm part of women of Cisco, and I'm going to all events and open to hear what this group has to say, right? I'm open to learn from women. So and I decide to participate. And as mentioned, in many of our events, they participate, they actively participate in this. So they have a voice as well. And they say, for example, let's say they will also do executive breakfast, that is important, because then we are like a nine women and one man and executive, right? So and they participate. And they love that because they are not afraid to be the only man in the room for a change, right? So I think what they are different is to speak about women of Cisco as well. They are our sponsors, some how they our sponsors, right? Because they are saying they are doing these, they have these initiatives, and want to participate, etc, etc. And we have also leaders we have, for example, Mark Trent, who is the director of latam engineering, so he's a very, very good sponsor, very open about the talking women of Cisco, etc, etc. So I think the most important thing I get is that they are open to pertain to this.

Umesh Lakshman: 38:41

Then Then shameless plug for max strength as he gets it. Like I've had, I've had a handful of conversations, he totally gets it. Yeah, totally understand. And and to summarize what he just said, what the gentlemen are doing is they participate. They learn, they're open to learning. They support at every step, and they're okay being the only man in the room. So I'm trying to like summarize that everybody gets it. And we put it in the slides here, too. But that is very important that if you're trying to be a male, who is an ally, to changing the domain and the ecosystem, those four are so well put. So Claudia, thank you so much for putting that together. That's very nicely said. So the last question, like Drum roll, right, is, it's a question we're asking everybody who comes in on the show, which is what are the three tangible actionable things that you would like to suggest to anyone who's listening? Who can make them a better ally, for diversity and inclusion?

Claudia Santamaria: 39:48

I think the first one is to be truly genuine. A because again, as we mentioned, as we talk about this, there's a lot of men that are speaking About the inclusion and diversity and gender equality, but they are not doing anything out. So begin if you are not convinced or what you're saying, stay like raw, because otherwise it's confusing for us as women to say he's supporting or not because he's saying that these work his team, there's no women at all. He doesn't like women to speak, etc, etc. So it's a little bit confusing those signups second, be respectful. I think that's it's very important. It's not only for women, but for everybody else. But respect, I think it's very important Valley, right, have an honest culture and inclusive and, and an inclusive culture, to the respect to respect to about the women, what they are saying, the way they expressing themselves, the way they are the way they look, as well, right. For the first one, I think baseball sort of a woman, again, you don't need to promote her career or to give her a race, not be the sponsor, pick one or two, and talk good things about her. If you are convinced that she's doing a good job, that he has a good she has a good personality that she has added value. Now, so be a sponsor of her or two or three or whatever you want, but and demonstrate that you are a true ally of a woman. At least one.

Umesh Lakshman: 41:32

Yeah, I love that. ads, it's demonstrate you're an actual ally, at least through one action. Right? is there's you just nailed it, which is there's so many people saying show that what you're saying makes perfect sense because you believe in it through some sort of action. Three things I saw there was one, be genuine, to be respectful. Three be a sponsor at any level, right? It doesn't have to be a big thing. Even if it's a small thing, even if it's you connecting a woman with somebody else within or outside the organization. That is still a sponsorship moment that you can do.

Claudia Santamaria: 42:15

You perfectly said exactly. That same. Yeah.

Umesh Lakshman: 42:19

Awesome. Perfect. So Claudia again. Thank you so much. For my phenomenal experience again, having you on this. And thank you for supporting us to write this is a whole new initiative for men for inclusion. And we love having you on the show. And we're looking forward to like maybe better interlock between boomers as grown men for inclusion as well as we go into net new horizons

Claudia Santamaria: 42:44

thanks to you mentioned, thank you for the opportunity and thanks to mine for inclusion for supporting us as women I think we're starting very, very good opportunity to work together and to create a more changes a lot of new stuff.